There was a recent post on another substack about the limits of liberalism that i found very thoughtful. That there are two extremes of political thought--and here it's important to note the difference between thought and action. On one end there is self-responsibility without compassion, a form of Ayn Rand-ian selfishness. On the other end is compassion without practical limits, what we used to call knee-jerk liberalism, which is about requiring that people give without observing healthy, practical boundaries.
I was a progressive for decades until I realized that the modern left was built on giving of oneself with half baked impractical rules, a form of idealism that doesn't play out well in the real world.
I think this conversation identifies that problem well with the example of men claiming to identify as women inviting themselves into women's sports. This is based upon the unspoken ideal that men and women should be equal in all things, without the reality check that there actually are real world differences. Equal rights, check. Equal opportunities, check. Equal access, or forced access regardless of merit = a recipe for cultural dissipation.
I think that example of the differences in male and female biology is solid common ground for seeing how the far left dems no longer have their feet planted on the ground. Another reality check: besides being woke, by which I mean qualified by spouting politically correct ideology, how do these people actually treat other human beings in everyday life? Do they treat everyone with respect and consideration, or are they creating a new form of inequality that allows men to take away rights that women fought for over a couple of centuries. What freedoms are being left broken, lying on the ground as a result of this new woke ideology? This is where I start to suspect creeping communism...
The Marxist/Communist/Socialist rhetoric is not creeping, it's sprinting to an imaginary finish line where we all voluntarily give up freedoms, one by one, until we find ourselves in a dystopian nightmare devoid of free choice. I found your answer quite thought provoking, full of pause and consideration. I wish all people had that ability to pause & consider more than two points of view. If they did, we would not have the divide that we presently do. However, that divide is a weapon of the leadership trying to distract while those freedoms are encroached upon. Nice work & God Bless
"self-responsibility without compassion" is the very bludgeon with which the left has used to silence the right, accusing them of not 'caring'.
-You're killing grandma by not staying home, wearing a mask and social distancing
-You are selfish and want people to die for not taking the shot
-You are cruel and uncaring if you want to dial back the learned helplessness our so-called safety net engenders
-You hate public schools/kids if you don't want every social service and social justice cause embedded in your schools
-You are killing the planet and don't care about the environment if you don't get in line with the green new deal agenda
and on and on....
When I do attempt to have rational discussions with the lefties that are still (barely at this point) in my social circle, the responses are always EMOTION fueled rather than data driven. Emotion driving public policy is how we got here. Conservatives donate to charity at a much higher dollar amount and %age than liberals. I know very few conservatives who are not volunteering for causes they support, although many only engage politically if there is something particularly egregious going on. The assumption that advocating for personal responsibility lacks compassion was a big driver in my leaving the D party in 1992 as Ross Perot's candidacy and push for deficit reduction resonated with me. I volunteered for his campaign and got bashed by some friends even back then for not 'caring' about the people 'helped' by government programs that would get the ax.
I like your approach, and appreciate your illustrations. I wish there were more thoughtful exchanges, as there are here. TPTB have helped create an atmosphere that is all about slinging mud and little about listening and identifying mutual/universal concerns. That's the key to me: to remember--and act upon--the core reality that our common needs outnumber our differences, and that being allowed to have differences is what makes us free.
The problem is that there are tradeoffs with any policy decision, nuances in every law, and grey areas all over the place. It's the easy button to circle the wagons and draw a line in the sand - and bash anyone who crosses it. Having a genuine discussion means breaking free of the circle, running to evade the slings and arrows of your side and the other side, and landing in a chair with someone who has done the same from their side.
For example, I am something of an environmentalist - we compost, don't use chemicals, feed the birds, plant pollinator friendly plants in our garden, haul our glass to the bins where a local company processes it to use for insulation and other products. But I hate windmills due to the bird kills and wildlife destruction and death, and see solar farms in much the same light, especially given the toxic waste in both producing and disposing of them. I also recognize that if the whole world went organic, the crop yields would drop and mass starvation could result. Heavy handed environmental enforcement has shuttered manufacturing and moved it overseas while small factory towns are hallowed out and left to fall apart. My daughter in law is from such a town, and drug use, crime and dilapidated buildings dominate what was once a growing blue collar town. Tradeoffs. We can't find a reasonable middle if all we do is scream at each other. And like you said, keeping us divided is part of the plan.
When I was young I aligned pretty well with the democrats… say like 40 years ago. These days I don’t even know what to label that group as. How far away from logic can a group go!?!? I find it so ironic that so many liberals have no idea that the KKK was founded by the democrats to scare people into voting democrat. They must have really rewritten the history books fully since I went to school.
What on Earth could you possibly have against Charlie Kirk?? Maher I can understand. Trump thinks very highly of Kirk, as do millions of others around the country. He works tirelessly for the conservative cause. Apparently, you're not very well informed. Maher should be commended for speaking out. He's putting a lot on the line by doing so. But, he is a libtard, in the end.
There's only 2 countries in the world who think that it's not a genocide, and about 160 who think it is. Guess who those 2 countries are. You're arguing semantics.
He bows down to support fake israel and excuses their genocides of the last 90 or so years since Menachem Begin's Irgun prided itself on being the world's first terrorist organisation and spewed its hate all over the Palestinians and the surrounding people's. How can anyone support a person that supports such evil? The PLO was formed to fight back 20 years after the Irgun terrorists started murdering Palestinians.
Typical. If they have good points that challenge your ideology, no need to assess your own beliefs, just make an ad hominem attack to show that you belong to a different tribe.
Thanks for the heads up regarding this interaction. In this era of increasing tribal politics where the two sides instinctively head to their corners ready to face off regardless of the issue and the facts, Bill Maher is one of the few pundits who is still willingly to objectively look at an issue and loudly proclaim when he believes that “his tribe “ is wrong, which is why do many of ^hem have now cancelled him. I am more often than not I disagreement with his views, but at least appreciate his thoughtfulness and humor. Meanwhile , it seems that extreme and vocal left of the Democratic Party still does not understand that when you are ina hole you should stop digging and reconsider your strategy.
The woke got one thing right it seems in that they agree with the genocidal maniacs murdering Palestinians and Trump supporting those genocidal maniacs with the US bombs and US intelligence information they need to murder people with and that agreement is that sensibly there can only be a one state solution. The only thing they all disagree on is the name of that state. I'll choose the name Palestine every single time.
I’ve always thought there were many similarities between a true liberal and a conservative especially since they should both be against excessive government control and promote personal freedoms. Gavin has many problems- fire and flood management, proud cities now ghettos, deficit due to welfare including immigrants benefits, trans surgeries for children. He’s not to be underestimated but the sports issue switch won’t get it.
Here's the problem we are having locally though. They may be only 10%, and very loud. But they are also VERY motivated. While conservatives have largely sat back, and said 'we won', the fringe left is raising money out the wazoo, getting out knocking doors, making life a living h*ll for local conservative candidates, and cowing dissenting voices into silence. (both on their side, and some on the right). Our 2 conservative SB candidates lost in our April 8 election, and it wasn't even close. Of the 14 candidates our local grassroots group endorsed, 7 won, and 2 by less than 20 votes in a record low turnout election. Who voted? The left - tax issues in jurisdictions who had them passed in a landslide, telling you who voted despite them being 'non-partisan' elections.
At our SB meeting last week public comments were packed with lefties vilifying a SB member who went to a local Riley Gaines event, saying he went to a 'trans hate rally'. At my MIL's this weekend, she noted that her (deep red) county now has a very active Democrat group. I asked her if the R committee was active, she said she had no idea.
Nationally, the D's may be on the ropes, but checking out is not an option for conservatives.
"the far left isn’t leading the Democrats forward. It’s dragging them down. And unless the party finds the courage to cut that anchor loose, it’s going to sink with it."
-- I certainly hope NOT! I hope the DemonicRats never find the courage to cut that anchor loose, and I hope they sink with it. Let me also add: "Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish"
Democrats torpedoed themselves when they ignored the extreme Left mantra that "kids can decide their gender". Anyone with half a brain knows that minors are still developing and cannot be encouraged to change their gender. Minors go through phases. It's so obvious that only an idiot (evil idiot?) would go along with it. But the Democrat party let the fanatic minority lead. And it sunk them.
There was a recent post on another substack about the limits of liberalism that i found very thoughtful. That there are two extremes of political thought--and here it's important to note the difference between thought and action. On one end there is self-responsibility without compassion, a form of Ayn Rand-ian selfishness. On the other end is compassion without practical limits, what we used to call knee-jerk liberalism, which is about requiring that people give without observing healthy, practical boundaries.
I was a progressive for decades until I realized that the modern left was built on giving of oneself with half baked impractical rules, a form of idealism that doesn't play out well in the real world.
I think this conversation identifies that problem well with the example of men claiming to identify as women inviting themselves into women's sports. This is based upon the unspoken ideal that men and women should be equal in all things, without the reality check that there actually are real world differences. Equal rights, check. Equal opportunities, check. Equal access, or forced access regardless of merit = a recipe for cultural dissipation.
I think that example of the differences in male and female biology is solid common ground for seeing how the far left dems no longer have their feet planted on the ground. Another reality check: besides being woke, by which I mean qualified by spouting politically correct ideology, how do these people actually treat other human beings in everyday life? Do they treat everyone with respect and consideration, or are they creating a new form of inequality that allows men to take away rights that women fought for over a couple of centuries. What freedoms are being left broken, lying on the ground as a result of this new woke ideology? This is where I start to suspect creeping communism...
The Marxist/Communist/Socialist rhetoric is not creeping, it's sprinting to an imaginary finish line where we all voluntarily give up freedoms, one by one, until we find ourselves in a dystopian nightmare devoid of free choice. I found your answer quite thought provoking, full of pause and consideration. I wish all people had that ability to pause & consider more than two points of view. If they did, we would not have the divide that we presently do. However, that divide is a weapon of the leadership trying to distract while those freedoms are encroached upon. Nice work & God Bless
I'm old enough (65) to have watched as US society became less and less able to pause & consider more than ONE point of view. Very chilling.
"self-responsibility without compassion" is the very bludgeon with which the left has used to silence the right, accusing them of not 'caring'.
-You're killing grandma by not staying home, wearing a mask and social distancing
-You are selfish and want people to die for not taking the shot
-You are cruel and uncaring if you want to dial back the learned helplessness our so-called safety net engenders
-You hate public schools/kids if you don't want every social service and social justice cause embedded in your schools
-You are killing the planet and don't care about the environment if you don't get in line with the green new deal agenda
and on and on....
When I do attempt to have rational discussions with the lefties that are still (barely at this point) in my social circle, the responses are always EMOTION fueled rather than data driven. Emotion driving public policy is how we got here. Conservatives donate to charity at a much higher dollar amount and %age than liberals. I know very few conservatives who are not volunteering for causes they support, although many only engage politically if there is something particularly egregious going on. The assumption that advocating for personal responsibility lacks compassion was a big driver in my leaving the D party in 1992 as Ross Perot's candidacy and push for deficit reduction resonated with me. I volunteered for his campaign and got bashed by some friends even back then for not 'caring' about the people 'helped' by government programs that would get the ax.
I like your approach, and appreciate your illustrations. I wish there were more thoughtful exchanges, as there are here. TPTB have helped create an atmosphere that is all about slinging mud and little about listening and identifying mutual/universal concerns. That's the key to me: to remember--and act upon--the core reality that our common needs outnumber our differences, and that being allowed to have differences is what makes us free.
The problem is that there are tradeoffs with any policy decision, nuances in every law, and grey areas all over the place. It's the easy button to circle the wagons and draw a line in the sand - and bash anyone who crosses it. Having a genuine discussion means breaking free of the circle, running to evade the slings and arrows of your side and the other side, and landing in a chair with someone who has done the same from their side.
For example, I am something of an environmentalist - we compost, don't use chemicals, feed the birds, plant pollinator friendly plants in our garden, haul our glass to the bins where a local company processes it to use for insulation and other products. But I hate windmills due to the bird kills and wildlife destruction and death, and see solar farms in much the same light, especially given the toxic waste in both producing and disposing of them. I also recognize that if the whole world went organic, the crop yields would drop and mass starvation could result. Heavy handed environmental enforcement has shuttered manufacturing and moved it overseas while small factory towns are hallowed out and left to fall apart. My daughter in law is from such a town, and drug use, crime and dilapidated buildings dominate what was once a growing blue collar town. Tradeoffs. We can't find a reasonable middle if all we do is scream at each other. And like you said, keeping us divided is part of the plan.
When I was young I aligned pretty well with the democrats… say like 40 years ago. These days I don’t even know what to label that group as. How far away from logic can a group go!?!? I find it so ironic that so many liberals have no idea that the KKK was founded by the democrats to scare people into voting democrat. They must have really rewritten the history books fully since I went to school.
'Social studies' has replaced history and civics.
These two I would NOT trust them further than I could throw them. Just saying.
What on Earth could you possibly have against Charlie Kirk?? Maher I can understand. Trump thinks very highly of Kirk, as do millions of others around the country. He works tirelessly for the conservative cause. Apparently, you're not very well informed. Maher should be commended for speaking out. He's putting a lot on the line by doing so. But, he is a libtard, in the end.
Calling Maher a “libtard” exemplifies the corrosive divide in this country.
All I can say is be careful who you follow.
As expected, you got nothing substantial to hang on Kirk.
Support for Israel genocide?
Only a moron would actually believe it's a "genocide." And the morons prove it daily.
There's only 2 countries in the world who think that it's not a genocide, and about 160 who think it is. Guess who those 2 countries are. You're arguing semantics.
He bows down to support fake israel and excuses their genocides of the last 90 or so years since Menachem Begin's Irgun prided itself on being the world's first terrorist organisation and spewed its hate all over the Palestinians and the surrounding people's. How can anyone support a person that supports such evil? The PLO was formed to fight back 20 years after the Irgun terrorists started murdering Palestinians.
Clearly you're an antisemite! Which puts you out of the conservative camp, or any rational people group for that matter.
Palestinians and Arabs are also semites, as is much of the middle east.
He's a zyonista...'nuff said.
Anyone who identifies with "left" or "right "doesn't understand that it's not about that, it's the wealthy class against the lower classes.
Typical. If they have good points that challenge your ideology, no need to assess your own beliefs, just make an ad hominem attack to show that you belong to a different tribe.
That’s a curious response. Sounds like there’s a conspiracy theory being hatched somewhere in there. If that be the case, please elaborate.
Thanks for the heads up regarding this interaction. In this era of increasing tribal politics where the two sides instinctively head to their corners ready to face off regardless of the issue and the facts, Bill Maher is one of the few pundits who is still willingly to objectively look at an issue and loudly proclaim when he believes that “his tribe “ is wrong, which is why do many of ^hem have now cancelled him. I am more often than not I disagreement with his views, but at least appreciate his thoughtfulness and humor. Meanwhile , it seems that extreme and vocal left of the Democratic Party still does not understand that when you are ina hole you should stop digging and reconsider your strategy.
I wish they would stop telling the evil democrats how to save themselves. Let them spiral down into the hole of irrelevancy.
The woke got one thing right it seems in that they agree with the genocidal maniacs murdering Palestinians and Trump supporting those genocidal maniacs with the US bombs and US intelligence information they need to murder people with and that agreement is that sensibly there can only be a one state solution. The only thing they all disagree on is the name of that state. I'll choose the name Palestine every single time.
I’ve always thought there were many similarities between a true liberal and a conservative especially since they should both be against excessive government control and promote personal freedoms. Gavin has many problems- fire and flood management, proud cities now ghettos, deficit due to welfare including immigrants benefits, trans surgeries for children. He’s not to be underestimated but the sports issue switch won’t get it.
Here's the problem we are having locally though. They may be only 10%, and very loud. But they are also VERY motivated. While conservatives have largely sat back, and said 'we won', the fringe left is raising money out the wazoo, getting out knocking doors, making life a living h*ll for local conservative candidates, and cowing dissenting voices into silence. (both on their side, and some on the right). Our 2 conservative SB candidates lost in our April 8 election, and it wasn't even close. Of the 14 candidates our local grassroots group endorsed, 7 won, and 2 by less than 20 votes in a record low turnout election. Who voted? The left - tax issues in jurisdictions who had them passed in a landslide, telling you who voted despite them being 'non-partisan' elections.
At our SB meeting last week public comments were packed with lefties vilifying a SB member who went to a local Riley Gaines event, saying he went to a 'trans hate rally'. At my MIL's this weekend, she noted that her (deep red) county now has a very active Democrat group. I asked her if the R committee was active, she said she had no idea.
Nationally, the D's may be on the ropes, but checking out is not an option for conservatives.
Definitely we cannot rest on our laurels.
The exchange was very respectful. Both made excellent points.
Odd that Mayer was drinking and smoking, or that he did that publicly.
Charlie was particularly effective in his rational points.
He always drinks and smokes during these sessions...sometimes even cannabis.
"the far left isn’t leading the Democrats forward. It’s dragging them down. And unless the party finds the courage to cut that anchor loose, it’s going to sink with it."
-- I certainly hope NOT! I hope the DemonicRats never find the courage to cut that anchor loose, and I hope they sink with it. Let me also add: "Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish"
Bill Maher may turn out to be the one to save these folks. God bless him.
That's funny, coming from the "Trump is god and can do no wrong" Kirk camp.
Bill for leader of the Dems!
Democrats torpedoed themselves when they ignored the extreme Left mantra that "kids can decide their gender". Anyone with half a brain knows that minors are still developing and cannot be encouraged to change their gender. Minors go through phases. It's so obvious that only an idiot (evil idiot?) would go along with it. But the Democrat party let the fanatic minority lead. And it sunk them.
This is how sane, intelligent political opposites converse.
deMS-13 by Dilley Meme Team
https://tucoschild.substack.com/p/dems-13-by-dilley-meme-team